Remodeling the Future: Paul McManus on Trends, Tech, and Travel

In this episode of the Remodeler Digital's Playbook podcast, host Rathna Ramakrishnan interviews Paul McManus, a remodeling contractor from Tallahassee, Florida. Paul shares his journey from starting as a painting contractor to becoming a design-build contractor. He discusses the popular remodeling trends in Tallahassee, his approach to client engagement, and the technology he uses to streamline his business. 

Paul shares insights from his extensive experience in the remodeling industry, emphasizing the importance of communication, project management, and adapting to changing consumer needs. He also provides valuable advice for new contractors and highlights the impact of technology on their operations.

📌KEY MOMENTS:

- 05:56: Design-Build Approach and Client Engagement
- 09:01: Streamlining Client Experience and Budgeting
- 20:56: Challenges and Personal Experiences in Remodeling
- 26:41: Marketing Strategies for Remodeling Contractors
- 41:28: Advice for New Contractors

🌟 What You'll Learn:
- ACTIONABLE TIPS to enhance client experience.
- INSIGHTS into successful marketing strategies.

🔨 Essential listening for remodeling contractors seeking to advance their digital marketing strategies.

🎧 Tune in now to transform your approach to digital marketing!

Ready to see real results from fellow General Contractors?

→ Step 1: Join our FREE Digital Dominance Club for Remodeling Contractors

→ Step 2: Follow us on Instagram

→ Step 3: Schedule a 1:1 call with Rathna now!

Let's rock your remodeling journey! 🛠️💰

Transcript

Rathna Ramakrishnan (00:02.452)
We are in for a treat at the Remodeler Digital's Playbook podcast today with Paul McManus from Tallahassee, Florida. He has a background in architecture. He's an avid traveler and he's a remodeling contractor. I am so excited to have you on the podcast and I can't wait to get to know you as well as how you work as a remodeling contractor. Thanks for taking the time, Paul.

Paul (00:29.568)
Yeah, you're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (00:31.466)
Very cool. So let's dive first right into work and then we'll talk about your personal story. Although I'm very excited to hear about your personal story. It's just so fascinating how much you've traveled and your bicycle expeditions and so forth. So tell me a little bit about what got you into the remodeling industry because you do have a background in architecture.

Paul (00:41.068)
Sure.

Paul (00:56.204)
Yeah, I don't come from a family of remodelers or anything. What happened was in college, I just started working for a painting contractor kind of as a summer job. And I kind of got the bug. That painter, that guy actually went out of business under sort of less than ideal circumstances. But it worked out for me because he gave me all his equipment.

as kind of a apology for leaving me high and dry. And so I just started my own painting company in college. And so I ran that through college and then after college, I kept going and it evolved into a handyman business. And then I got my contractor's license and the rest is history.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (01:42.882)
So today you do all kinds of remodeling, kitchen and bathroom and additions. What is popular in the Tallahassee area and Florida today?

Paul (01:54.242)
Rathna Ramakrishnan (01:56.17)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul (01:57.014)
You mean as far as projects, types of projects? and then we specialize in kitchen and bath. So we tear out a lot of those old Jacuzzi tubs and replace them with bigger showers. That's probably one of our more popular bathroom remodels. Kitchens down here, everyone still wants the open kitchen concept. know, Tallahassee's a pretty traditional.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (02:16.994)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Paul (02:23.318)
kind of more conservative area from a design point of view. we do kind of a lot of more traditional kitchens and stuff.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (02:31.584)
Nice and do you have a showroom?

Paul (02:35.98)
with you.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (02:36.778)
And how do you find the products that you show off or showcase in your showroom? you tie yourself to just the classic, you know, bigger brands or do you build relationships with smaller vendors, producers? Like, what will I see if I were to walk into your showroom as a homeowner?

Paul (02:59.67)
Well, we specialize in frameless cabinetry, which is a little unique in Tallahassee. Frameless cabinetry is obviously very popular across the world, but in Tallahassee, and in America in general, framed cabinets are certainly more common. So we work with both well -known brands and boutique brands. We're always looking for unique and original things to bring into the showroom. We like to show people stuff

Rathna Ramakrishnan (03:09.932)
Thank

Paul (03:28.364)
they haven't seen anywhere else, you know what I mean? Bring them something new. So anytime someone comes in the showroom, we're always hoping to show them something they haven't seen before.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (03:37.368)
So when you say a frameless cabinetry, is that the one that's capable of like the funky openings like a Tesla door or what is?

Paul (03:48.006)
You can do bifold lift up doors and we like frameless cabinetry because you can do some unique organizers in it and unique doors. We feel like it's a cleaner look and you also get per sort of linear foot of cabinet you also get more storage because you don't have that frame around the cabinet ticking up space.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:06.186)
I see.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:10.882)
So do you regard yourself a design and build contractor? Do you have a designer team in -house that actually draws and does the 3D renderings for your clients?

Paul (04:22.486)
Yeah, we have two designers on staff. We have a couple of project managers and then some support staff, know, design assistants, a warehouse manager, stuff like that.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:31.988)
Was there a certain point in time when you decided to become a design and build contractor? Because design is a little bit more intense where you need the team, you need to present it, and then there's going to be adjustments and costing and estimation for all of that. So was there a point in time when you were just a builder, a contractor, and then you added the design part to it, or you've always been a design -build firm?

Paul (04:58.786)
No, we started the design build approach in 2015. Prior to that, I was pretty much just like a lot of contractors in town where I would work with other designers. And we'd visit all the different showrooms in town. We didn't have our own showroom. I was always involved in the design because of my background in architecture. I've always done a lot of the initial design work at least before we handed it off to a cabinet company or a designer.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:20.418)
Mm -hmm.

Paul (05:29.239)
And then I just, I'm kind of a control freak. And so I got frustrated with delays from people not ordering stuff or not having the stuff I wanted because they just didn't, you know, they didn't just have very broad product lines or limited designs, sort of what I felt like were limited visions. So yeah, we decided to open up our own showroom and design center and do that stuff ourself.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:37.474)
Whoa.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:48.749)
Mm -hmm.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:56.32)
Very cool. So one of the things I caught on your website or information about your brand is that you offer a good, better, best kind of a budget model. And how does how has this helped you streamline your decision making process for your clients, for your homeowners?

Paul (06:17.004)
Well, I think most people want options. Like most of our clients, they've only remodeled once before or maybe never before. They don't really have a budget. They're not really sure what things cost. They're not really even sure what the possibilities are. And so our process is all about just helping them explore that. And so by showing them good, better, best choices, and good, better, best is really all about material choices, there's really no, we don't really do good, better, best labor. We kind of do labor one way and that's.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (06:36.024)
nice.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (06:41.602)
Mm

Of course. True.

Paul (06:46.774)
the best we can. But by showing them the options and helping them understand what's the difference between a good cabinet and a better cabinet and a best cabinet, they can make the smart choice for their needs instead of locking them into a choice without consulting them.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (07:06.698)
Nice. So let's pretend you have a brand new lead that has come in from whatever source, your website, or I don't know if you do any paid lead generation. What is the experience that that lead goes through? Do they go through a phone appointment and then an in -house estimate appointment? And what does that process look like for you to take a lead and convert it into a client and then put money in the bank, make revenue for yourself?

Paul (07:34.262)
Yeah, sure. So we start with what we call a discovery call, which is a pretty quick call just to learn about their needs and explain how we work. From there, we do what we call a design and budget consult, which is really it's two meetings. So it starts with me going out to their home to take a look and get accurate measurements. We actually scan the home with a 3D software tool to get our initial measurements.

After that meeting, we'll have them come into the showroom. We'll have prepared a 3D concept drawing of what we think the new space might look like, as well as that good, better, best budget to go with the concept. And then we'll sit together for about an hour, hour and a half, and we'll discuss the concept, and we'll discuss the budget, and we'll adjust it based on their needs. And at the end of that meeting,

we decide if we want to move forward into design or if they want to go home and think about it or whatever the appropriate next step might be.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (08:37.848)
So this entire approach, this entire strategy is free or do they pay you at any point in time for your team's time?

Paul (08:45.154)
We do charge, yeah, we charge a fee for our house. Yeah, so the initial home visit and showroom visit, we charge a fee anywhere from $225 to $575, just depending on the scope of work.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (08:47.564)
At what point each one?

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:01.578)
and then if they were to go with you then you would just apply those fees to the project value.

Paul (09:06.988)
Yeah, it's a credit on the project, yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:09.442)
So do you feel this is a friction point? Because this is one of the things that I recommend to my contractors and many of them say, no, this is not going to work out. And how did you make that decision to? Because you're valuing your time and I'm sure you're giving them a really good estimate and clarity on what they want to do because remodeling is not for the faint of heart. It takes time and effort and your life is going to change when you have remodeling done in your home.

Paul (09:19.52)
and

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:36.632)
How did you arrive at that point where you said, you know, this is worth $300, $500 and your clientele is open to paying that?

Paul (09:48.066)
The, mean, started here, we've been charging a fee for probably close to 10 years. It started, you know, it started real small, really just to sort of eliminate people who weren't serious. Like you said, kind of trying to avoid wasting our time. I think I started charging $25 back 10 years ago. That's what I charged, you know, which.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:52.47)
Nice.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:02.06)
Mm -hmm, the tire.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:09.6)
Sweet!

Paul (10:11.938)
was thinking about it, it feels like silly, but that's how we started. And then at one point, then someday I changed it and it was $75. And then it became $125. And every time we raise prices on how much the console costs, what we're really doing is we're adding value into the console process. Like the whole idea is yes, we're charging a fee, but what that allows us to do is,

spend more time and effort on creating a better proposal and doing a better job at helping them understand their options. So it's in my mind, it's a real win -win. They get a much better experience and a much more accurate estimate and a better initial process. And then we get compensated for our time. Although I'll tell you, we're not compensated 100%. It still costs me more to create that proposal than we are charging.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:41.91)
Mm -hmm.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:02.657)
Right.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:07.04)
I can imagine it.

Paul (11:08.224)
But it does eliminate some people who don't want to pay. There's a little bit of friction. But the right clients, the clients who want to work with a contractor like us, they don't mind at all. Most people totally understand, they get the value. And the ones that don't, there are other contractors that might be a better fit for them.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:30.528)
Nice. So you do have foot traffic that comes to your showroom then people can just walk by and

Paul (11:37.748)
No, we're appointment only. Yeah. Yeah, we do get people walk in, but we're not very many. It says right on the door, appointment only.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:39.496)
I see. So then saps.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:47.4)
I see, very cool. considering you're putting together this proposal and it's a paid appointment, do you use a certain tech stack? Do you have certain tools that you like that you're using to keep your business moving forward? Be it when leads come in from your website or for design and estimation. And if you were to pick three to five of your top favorite tools, what would they be and why do you like them?

Paul (12:02.753)
Okay.

Paul (12:15.348)
I mean, we use Builder Trend for all of our project management. So that's our CRM. And if they move forward into design and build, that's our project management tool. We use Canvas, which is a 3D scanning tool, to capture all of our as -builts. So we'll scan a room. We'll send it to Canvas. And they send us back a CAD drawing. And then we're able to create the initial concept from there.

We use spreadsheets. Our initial estimates are built on a pretty robust spreadsheet that we've created, built on Google Sheets. Those are probably our three main bits of technology. We're big on scheduling things. So all of our meetings are scheduled with clients in advance. And so we use Acuity scheduling software for that. That helps kind of streamline things and keep things on track. Yeah, those are definitely our main ones.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (13:10.966)
And then, but in remodeling, where are you holding your open leads, right? Leads that have come in that are kind of still not made a decision, but you know, they're a qualified lead, valid homeowner. What is your process in making sure that, you you continue to stay in conversation with them because unconverted leads is the number one challenge in the remodeling.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (13:34.2)
you know, the time to the speed to connection and what are some of the things that you top of mind with your open leads.

Paul (13:43.426)
So we use Buildertrend for that. So Buildertrend has a CRM built in. And we have a series of templated emails. So when someone contacts us, we speak on the phone, we send them an email with a scheduling link so they can schedule that initial home visit. A few days later, they'll get another email from us with some information about the company, like our license and our insurance.

A few days after that, if they haven't scheduled, they'll get a reminder from us. So we have sort of things like this built in. Same when we send them a link to schedule their showroom visit after the home visit. There's an email series they get that kind of explains to them what to expect and prepare them for that appointment.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:18.978)
Templated.

Paul (14:32.48)
And then after they've gotten their budget from us, we have a follow -up series of four or five emails that go out over the course of, you know, four to six weeks until they decide they want to move forward or they don't want to move forward or whatever. And then all clients will go into our newsletter list and we send out a newsletter six times a year. And that's just a way to stay top of mind with people who haven't.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:44.632)
you

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:52.482)
Woo.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:55.894)
Nice. So up.

Paul (15:02.08)
decided to move forward yet and just stay in touch with past clients.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:05.976)
So you're like tooting your horn and talking about your completed projects and things in your newsletter. What is the content of your newsletters?

Paul (15:16.182)
Yeah, our newsletter is the same every time. It'll be three recent projects. We do a case study, a pretty detailed case study for every project we complete that includes things like project timeline, project cost, things that went well, things that were challenges, how we solve those challenges. So we'll do a summary of three projects with links to the actual case study. And then we'll include a couple of blog posts, usually seasonal, depending on the time of year.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:25.186)
Thank

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:44.956)
Hey

Paul (15:46.904)
And that's really it. So it's just the same every time. It's kind of templated, but it provides, we get good feedback on it because providing clients a little bit of inspiration and a little bit of information without being too overwhelming.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:51.308)
Good -bye.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:00.008)
Nice. So talking about your case studies, do you have, you you've been at this a long time, literally since you were a kid with your first painting gig. But when you look at all the projects you've done, is there a favorite project that you like? Because, you know, remodeling literally transforms people's lives. Because once you change the space that people live in, you know, you just become happier, more efficient.

Paul (16:10.608)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul (16:20.831)
yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:25.292)
But is there a favorite project that comes to mind where it was so dramatic, the effect on the homeowner or the space, or perhaps it was just a favorite project for you because of all the little details that went into it? I'd love to hear.

Paul (16:40.512)
Yeah, that's a tough one. That's like picking your favorite kid or something. I mean, I like them all. You know what I mean? The actually, you know, I like most of them. I would say it's probably easier to name ones that I don't like than the ones that I like. Most of them, we really we like them all. the ones that I don't like isn't the right word.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:45.666)
Hahaha

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:49.709)
Yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:56.408)
Yeah, let's do that. Elimination is a good way too.

Paul (17:08.522)
Sometimes you kind of strongly disagree with some of the design decisions a client wants to make. And those are always tough projects. It's what they want. And we're very careful about, you know, we express our opinion. We'll double down and reinforce our opinion. But ultimately it's their home. If they want what they want, you know, we're going to do what they want. But sometimes those projects, we don't take final photos of those projects. You know, I don't do case studies of those projects.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (17:14.488)
Mm

Rathna Ramakrishnan (17:36.77)
You're not proud of it. Got it. Got it. Well, fair enough, right sir?

Paul (17:40.64)
know, the bottom line is the client's happy and that's what matters most, but we just might not like the way it looks or might disagree with some of the design details that they wanted.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (17:51.576)
Especially with your architecture background, your aesthetic sense must be very high. So I can imagine if there is a homeowner that's asking for silly stuff and it doesn't align with what you think makes sense, then you probably...

Paul (18:03.744)
Yeah, and I'm really more of the function guy. I'm really about the layout and the organization and all that. That's my big thing. I'm a little more flexible on aesthetics than my designers. My designers are the ones who really are more strict when it comes to the aesthetics sometimes. But yeah, I'm really more about the space has to work well and I want it to be timeless and work well for a very long time.

But it's a good combination between the designers and myself. You know, we can put together a pretty good, pretty good package.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (18:38.2)
So there's a statistic that every homeowner is likely to have a kitchen or a bathroom remodel. In fact, a kitchen and a bathroom remodel in their lifetime. And so what is trending these days when you think about remodeling in kitchen and bathroom? Like I know there's those, I go to the International Builders Show. I'm a member of the National Association of Remodelers. So I've seen those, know, touchless faucets and those, you know, totos that sing and they have the warm toilet seat. And so

What's trending right now? Like what do homeowners like right now when it comes to remodels?

Paul (19:14.338)
Natural stone around here is a big push for natural stone. Marble and quartzite, stuff like that. Manmade quartz is still very, very popular, still the most popular. But natural stone, we're seeing a big push for that in a lot of projects, especially marble. We're seeing color. White cabinets are still around, but we're seeing more people bring color into the...

Rathna Ramakrishnan (19:26.232)
Thanks.

Paul (19:40.502)
into the cabinetry, wood cabinets making a comeback. The painted finishes are still very popular, but we're seeing more and more people gravitate towards wood. As far as things like the singing total toilet, we tend to stay away from really trendy things because we're trying to build spaces for people that are gonna last a long, time.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (19:54.744)
you

Paul (20:06.57)
I will say like fluted things are very popular. know, whether it's a farm front sink with a fluted finish or cabinets with fluted doors, tiles with fluted pattern on them. For some reason, fluted things are crazy popular right now.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (20:10.167)
Nice.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (00:02.112)
So this summer I had to remodel my master bathroom due to a plumbing issue. And, you know, I went through the whole interview process of interviewing a bunch of contractors and then picked one and we're really pleased with the bathroom that we've been handed with. But one of the things that happened was there is a wall cabinet that's to the right of my vanity and there's glass shelves that go on it. And the clips that hold the shelves were part of the packaging and the team threw it away. And we are dealing with trying to find the manufacturer.

Paul (00:28.716)
I don't know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (00:32.072)
It really made me stop and think about like, you you're not only in people's homes and for, know, three to eight weeks, like working through the remodel. then when little things happen like this, the project is not like officially completed in my head. That I was wondering, like, do you have any simple systems or processes to like avoid these kinds of things? Or is this just an inevitable fact of life that sometimes things just go amiss?

Paul (00:57.804)
mean, it's remodeling, so there's a lot of unknowns. So often things come up on projects that are unexpected. So that is normal. However, what's important is how you deal with them. And we do have processes in place. So we want to resolve those issues as quickly as possible. We would never make you go look for those things on your own. For example, we would get them for you.

But we do, so we have project managers who are on site every day and they are doing quality control inspections. They are looking for things like those missing clips. And they're adding those things to a list so we can address them. So that's sort of a daily task. And then three times during the job, we're doing a formal walkthrough and that would be with the client, the designer.

and the project manager, all three together, walking through the project and just discussing things and making sure everything is how everyone expects. And so then we'll make little lists of things there, get those addressed quickly as well. So the goal is to get to the end of the project and there are no more of those issues because we've caught them by doing these daily inspections and these sort of regular walkthroughs.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (02:17.526)
Cool. I like that three touch points during the project idea, which will keep it seamless when the project closes.

Paul (02:26.208)
Yeah, the formal walkthroughs are great. mean, obviously the client can talk to us every day. They can email us, they can have questions, but doing it formally and the good, key is, you know, the project manager is there every day. And sometimes when you see something every day, you can become a little blind to some small details, you know? So getting the designer who's there, who hasn't been there in a few weeks, it's a fresh perspective. so that helps a lot. Sometimes she'll see things that have been

Rathna Ramakrishnan (02:42.88)
Ha ha.

Paul (02:56.084)
been there for a little while but the project manager maybe hasn't noticed them. She looks at it from a different point of view than he does. That's always helpful.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (03:05.622)
Nice. So considering you've been in the remodeling industry for so many years, what have you noticed in terms of trends in the past 10 years with COVID in between? Are people more ready to remodel? I know that there was a huge spike in remodeling with everybody stuck at home during the pandemic, know, looking at their own spaces and saying, you know, how can I improve the space that I'm stuck in? But what's happening recently in the past, you know, the recent

three to four years post pandemic and what are you predicting as a trend going forward?

Paul (03:40.587)
Lots of swimming pools have been added to homes since COVID. I feel like swimming pools were kind of like dying. Like not many people wanted them because of the maintenance. But I think COVID changed that. Now, most people we talk to are either putting in a pool or planning to put in a pool. Like suddenly it's a very big thing. But that, I think in general what's changed is people want the home to serve.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (03:43.471)
Nice. Why not? Yeah.

Paul (04:07.606)
multiple purposes. They want the home to be able to do a lot. So they want to be able to have a home gym and a play center and a quiet space and an entertaining space. People just want their homes to do lots of things. In case they can't go to the gym, in case they can't go out to eat, they want to be able to do that stuff at home. So that's probably the biggest change. And then more recently with increase in housing prices and increase in interest rates,

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:14.432)
Mm

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:20.406)
No.

Paul (04:36.534)
More people are, people used to upgrade. They would just move to a nicer home with the things they wanted. Nowadays, people are more likely to remodel to get what they want, it seems like.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:41.546)
Mm -hmm.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:48.084)
Nice, so your project flow has been steady. You haven't seen a lull or a spike or...

Paul (04:54.818)
We've been pretty consistent for quite a while. You never know, know, cross fingers, knock on wood, what's around the corner, but we've done pretty good, staying pretty steady, growing at a pretty moderate 10 % or so every year.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:12.726)
Very cool. So considering I'm a digital marketer and I work exclusively with remodeling contractors, I'm always curious to learn about your marketing methodologies. Do you just rely on referrals or do you have a marketing stack that you like that works really well for you? Be it organic posting on social media or are you running Google ads, Facebook ads? What has worked for you to get to that 10 % steady increase in beating or meeting your revenue goals?

Paul (05:41.227)
Yeah, we're real big on content marketing. That's our big thing. So we put a ton of effort. We write about a blog post a week, post it to the site, and then we'll promote that on social media. We write those project case studies we talked about. And again, we'll promote those on social media. But the whole marketing strategy for us is rank well organically.

and drive traffic to the website. We've put a lot of effort into the website to make sure it's a really good tool for our clients to understand us and to do research about remodeling in general. And so that's worked very well for us, you know, to date.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (06:24.16)
So it's homegrown SEO that you're engaging in, your teams.

Paul (06:28.256)
Yeah, yeah, locally focused content, writing content, promoting it on social media. That's the core of our marketing platform. We do a little bit of video and we do a little bit of everything. We experiment with all the other stuff, but that's our real base. We're never not going to do that. And then just depending on what's going on, we'll experiment with Google ads or doing YouTube shorts.

or doing Pinterest ads, other social media. But those are like little experiments. We ran some TV ads for a while just to see how that goes. And that was pretty good. I would do that again. We advertise on a local NPR channel. That's a pretty consistent marketing investment for us. And it's just sort of, it's baseline staying in touch, top of mind with people.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (07:24.97)
Amazing. So if you were to come up with a number for your marketing budget, is that a number that you really stop and think about? you base it on your revenue goals or a certain percent of where your revenue is at today? do you kind of just...

Paul (07:39.906)
Yeah. So we don't set a budget and spend that budget. That's not how we look at it. I do kind of say, like, I don't want to exceed 2 % of revenue. So if we start spending a bunch of money, I kind of take a look and say, well, we want to cap it at 2%. And there are some years where we've come close to that. But most years, we're kind of well below it.

because organic content isn't that expensive to create. But you know, we're spending somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 ,000 a year probably on content and putting it out there. It's gotten a little more expensive since the video is more expensive. So since we started doing video, that's definitely gone up a bit.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (08:22.219)
Nice.

Paul (08:32.726)
The video has been great to have too, been able to do some real fun things with job site video and testimonials and staff interviews and stuff like that.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (08:42.541)
You have some pretty excellent reviews on your Google Business Profile. Do you have a plan in place to gather those reviews? Do you have the timing of the ask of when you ask the homeowner to write you a review? Or are these reviews just happening organically? Do you have a review collection strategy in place?

Paul (09:03.694)
We do have a strategy, some of them are organic. we essentially, every project we complete, or most, we'll take professional photos, and now we'll get professional video. So at the photo shoot, or video shoot, when we're seeing the client for the first time in a couple of weeks since their project has been completed,

We want to make sure we're happy. We try to make it as fun as we can. We usually bring them a gift and then we'll mention to them, like, you know, we'd really love a review. And then we'll send them a follow -up email with a link to make it easy for them to schedule that review. When we get the final photos back, we pick a few of them. We'll put some before -afters together. We create a little media package for them.

of their project and we'll email that to them. Yeah, a little look book kind of thing, digital. We try to make it very shareable so if they want to put it on their own social media they can. And then if they haven't left a review yet, when we deliver that to them, we'll do a follow up ask for the review. And then a couple of weeks after that, we'll have written our project case study.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:58.09)
like a lookbook,

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:03.061)
Nice.

Paul (10:22.818)
We'll email them, we send them a close of project email that just explains our follow -up process and our warranty process and what to expect. And then if they haven't looked at the review, we'll do a final ask there. And then that's it. We don't want to pester people. So we ask a couple of times that they don't want to leave us a review, that's fine. And I would say probably, probably around 40, 50 % of our clients will leave us a review.

any given year, which is fine. You know, we don't need hundreds of reviews. We're happy if we're getting a couple of new ones a month.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:55.478)
Right, yeah, that's local SEO right there for you. The Google algorithm will recognize your brand and will, you when people search for you, it's going to show up.

Paul (11:05.142)
Yeah, Well, number one thing people say when they call is if they haven't been to our website, a lot of people, the bane of my existence kind of is Google My Business. It's fantastic because, you you search and it pops up and it's right there and it's easy to contact. But people are calling us before they do any research. They're just calling us right from Google My Business.

And the number one thing we hear from those calls is they'll say, why did you call us? They'll say, well, you popped up when I did a search and you have five star reviews and they look good. So I called you. And weirdly, those are often not the best leads because they have not done any research about who we are and what we do. The best leads for us to do some research.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:30.486)
me.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:46.09)
You are a

Makes sense, yeah, because it's a commitment. Remodeling is a commitment because there's thousands of dollars involved. So in a Google Business Profile, optimization is one of my favorite things to do. I'm really passionate about it. one thing that you can do is you can install a trackable phone number on your profile. And then the first point of contact will be you can immediately send them a message and kind of guide them through the process that you want them to take so your team is not wasting time on.

Paul (11:56.215)
Yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:17.711)
random conversations and you can kind of vet the lead and push the tire kickers out and so forth.

Paul (12:22.614)
Yeah, that's interesting. We do need this call rail to track all our calls. So all our incoming calls are recorded and we track that stuff. I never really thought about sending them a message in advance. My philosophy has always been, want to talk to, we have someone who answers, her job is to answer the phones, but we want them to call. I don't care if you call and you want to buy a toilet. We don't sell toilets. I still want you to call.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:35.874)
Yeah.

Paul (12:51.958)
because I want to provide you a positive experience with our brand. And then maybe a year from now, you remember us when you do a remodel. So we kind of encourage the calls. We're not getting overwhelmed with calls. You know what I mean? It's totally manageable. But it's a little frustrating that these people finding us on. I wish there was a way to get a little more information in that Google My Business profile.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:54.784)
For sure. Yep.

Paul (13:20.032)
to help people understand exactly what we do. But it's a pretty limited box there that you get. But it's a good problem to have.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (13:26.79)
It's improved over the years. The profile has become pretty robust. There's a lot of things you can put in there. I didn't really look at your profile with the fine -tube comb, but yeah, there's tons of things that you can do on it to find that optimal lead that matches the ideal keywords, the kitchen and bathroom, and project value and so forth.

Paul (13:46.216)
okay. If you get a chance to take a look, I'd love to hear what we could be doing different. Because it's great that so many people see it, but it's terrible that so many people, you know, they call us looking for something we don't really provide because they didn't know enough about us.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (13:51.104)
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:04.586)
Do you engage in any text marketing?

Paul (14:08.788)
No, I'm not, I hate text. Like I don't like getting texts from, know, so I kind of, I don't like, text for me is more private than email. Like you can, you can cold email me and that's okay. If you cold text me, you know, you're losing my business. I don't appreciate it. So I've always shied away from it for that reason. Now, if a client gives us permission, then of course we will engage with them to text, but.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:14.262)
changes.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:21.184)
Mm -hmm.

You're gonna block me.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:39.146)
That was a...

Paul (14:39.385)
I don't like doing a lot of formal effects.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (14:42.23)
Today, anybody cannot text if you're receiving any text campaigns. There's an entire verification process that marketing agencies need to go through before we can text market for our clients. And this was because of a lawsuit that happened in the United States. And so every phone number that we buy for text marketing needs to be, it's called A2P 10 DLC, application to person 10 digit long code verification. So if the number is not verified, it's not even going to make it onto the phone. So I think that way, in some ways, America being a

Paul (14:53.216)
Yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:11.326)
litigious society is helpful to humanity and society so we're not just like bombarded with messages. So it's become way more tedious. So I was just curious to hear your take on text marketing. So if there is a brand new... Go ahead. You're not...

Paul (15:25.152)
Yeah, I'm over it.

I'm an old guy. I'm an old guy. I'm still resistant to it, but you know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:32.118)
So you'd rather hear from your friends than family on your text and not be marketed to.

Paul (15:37.366)
Yeah, texturing is very unique. I use text for very specific reasons and I don't want to hear from other people. But as time goes on, more and more people are going to be open to texting. So I'm sure that will change over time. As the younger people buy houses and get into remodeling, a lot of them do prefer being contacted by text.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:42.698)
Hahaha

Rathna Ramakrishnan (15:59.018)
Yeah, we deploy text campaigns for my contractors and it does really well because like you say, it's that age range, know, the millennials and the age range of the people that, you know, want to have that at the palm of your hands because everybody has a phone sewn to their bodies these days. So, you know, if you're able to do a bunch of actions from your phone, sure, why not? If there was a brand new contractor that was just starting in the remodeling industry, considering you're a veteran, you've been at this for so many years,

Paul (16:16.256)
Go ahead.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:28.788)
What would be like little nuggets of wisdom that you would share? Would it be a favorite book? Did you have a mentor or what would you recommend them to do?

Paul (16:36.45)
So yeah.

hard thing about being new is you don't have the money to do the things you need to do. I would say 100 % if you're just starting out, hire a coach. And there's some good ones out there. But when you're first starting out, you probably don't have money to hire a coach. that's

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:43.478)
Right. Fact of life.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (16:55.51)
Did you hire a coach? you have a favorite contractor coach that you like working with?

Paul (17:02.56)
I do, worked, don't, we don't work together anymore because he's, his sort of wheelhouse is taking people from kind of the just starting out the one man show and helping them grow into a, you know, a business where they, where they have staff and then, then, you know, so I can't, kind of outgrew each other, but he's a fantastic guy. His name's Kyle, Kyle Hunt. So.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (17:26.996)
and he's still around, he's still in business.

Paul (17:29.984)
Yeah, he runs a great Facebook group called Remodelers Community. That's just fantastic. It's full of people just sharing tips. I get a lot of great advice and ideas from that forum. But yeah, Kyle's great. I recommend Kyle to anybody. But when I started out on my own, I couldn't afford a coach. The book that probably had the biggest impact for me is a book by Michael Stone.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (17:34.399)
I see.

Paul (17:58.85)
called markup and profit. And it's really, it's just all about knowing your numbers and how to figure out how to charge appropriately for your services. Understanding your overhead costs, you know, and being able to charge appropriately for those, how to do proper estimating and think about all of the things that need to be included in an estimate. And so that was a game changer for me because really once you start charging appropriately,

Rathna Ramakrishnan (18:01.323)
Mmm.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (18:08.715)
rate.

Paul (18:25.09)
then the door, then now you can, the door is open. You can start to afford marketing services. You can start to afford coaching services. And then you start to realize, I get how this works. Like I need, I just can't charge $30 an hour and make $30 an hour. I need more money to invest in my business in order to help make it grow. And it's sort of just, you know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (18:41.75)
Mm -hmm.

Paul (18:47.574)
The number one rule is make more money. Like start charging more and start banking money so you can invest that money back into the business. The second...

Rathna Ramakrishnan (18:56.206)
And then I think that, go ahead. No, I said it's a mindset to be able to charge more, to charge what you work. When you're an entrepreneur, it takes a bit of time for you to land at that sweet spot.

Paul (19:10.806)
Yeah, it's definitely a mindset shift that I think once you make it, things start to change in a big way. The second book that really made a difference for me was a book called Profit First by Michael Mikhailovits. And that's just really, a cash flow management system that we still use today that's fantastic. And the core, I do, yeah, I probably.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (19:23.488)
Yes.

Yes.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (19:33.162)
Did you open up your four accounts? Did you open up your four?

Paul (19:38.562)
I probably have six accounts. We've kind of customized it a little bit to our needs, but the core idea of whatever your net profit goal is, 10%, let's say, you take that 10 % first and you stick it somewhere out of sight. And if you can't run your business on the remaining 90%, then you know you're doing something wrong. You have to fix something. That was just...

really great and it's helped us, know, and then bucketing saving for taxes in advance, saving for investment in the company in advance, saving for, you know, having a contingency fund for if things do go wrong, you know, all of those things have been great. And yeah, you do that for couple of years and then suddenly you look at your bank account and you're like, man, I'm in a great position. Like things could go terrible for, you know, quite a few months and I would survive. And then that feels really good.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (20:21.13)
Yup, I'm a huge...

Rathna Ramakrishnan (20:28.502)
You see it.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (20:35.104)
Yep, I'm a huge fan of Profit First as well. I've been a long time entrepreneur and I have those accounts set up and notated the percents that you're supposed to put away and then I diligently move the money around. And like you say, it's just this, suddenly you have this freedom, the brain bandwidth of like not worrying about money anymore because you can exactly see where all your dollars are sitting and just liberating to do Profit First. Yeah, very powerful.

Paul (20:58.272)
Yeah. Yeah. Instead of buying a new truck and having to make payments for four years, you have the cash to go buy the truck. You know, that's a much, much different thing. know?

Rathna Ramakrishnan (21:07.882)
me

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, very true. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. AI is such a big deal today. Everybody's talking about Chat GPT and Gemini and the Zimm Writer. And are you a fan of AI? Do you use any tools in your day to day business? What's your overall take on AI?

Paul (21:32.878)
I mean, I'm a fan for sure. I'm kind of a tech guy, a little geeky. We don't, to be honest, we don't use it a ton. In copywriting, we use it. So we'll use it for generating blog posts and then editing. And then of course we'll edit them before we post them. We'll use it to generate emails, we're writing an email. We use it to update web pages that we feel like have gone cold and we want to...

Rathna Ramakrishnan (21:46.784)
You

Paul (22:01.622)
get a new perspective on them. I've started using it for training where we're taking, we have a ton of written SOPs for the business. And so you can take those SOPs and you can put them into, let's say I use Gemini.

but you can put them in ChatGPT or Gemini and ask it to create a quiz from that SOP. And it will generate a quiz so we can use it in training to test what's going on with that SOP. 

Rathna Ramakrishnan (00:04.354)
What is your take on AI is and what are the different tools that you enjoy using right now via ChatGPT or Gemini for either blog creation, content creation. So yeah, share with me, please.

Paul (00:21.886)
Yeah, so we're big, we use a lot for copywriting. So writing blog content, website content, that's a pretty easy use case. I've started using it to create quizzes from our SOPs. So you can upload an SOP and it'll create a quiz. And that's been pretty useful for training new staff. But I also bring up the quiz at every staff meeting and just quiz everyone on, you know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (00:33.468)
Mm

Paul (00:47.036)
existing SOPs and that's been very useful just to reinforce, you know, best practices. You we all like every business you do things right for a while and then for some reason suddenly people don't follow the procedure and things start to get a little off track. We have to always come back and reinforce the procedure and this is why we do it and the quizzes have been real good for that. But AI mostly, I'm mostly just excited to see what happens with it in the future. I feel like there's just

Rathna Ramakrishnan (01:00.444)
Hahaha!

Paul (01:17.044)
You know, there's not a ton of use cases for us right now, but I feel like in the next three, four, five years, there's going to be a lot. I'm looking at more and more people seem to be.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (01:26.908)
Thank you.

Paul (01:30.088)
integrating it into existing software, which I think is the best use of it. So once we start seeing more of it integrated into project management software, integrated into estimating software, integrated into CRMs, I think that's where it becomes real powerful. When it becomes a little more user friendly, instead of me having to take something, put it into JAT GPT, it's just built into the thing I'm using. And I can just say, hey, generate this report for me, write this thing for me. So I think I'm excited about

about that more than anything.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (02:01.34)
but what you're asking for is trying to replace the human brain, right? Which might be a long ask because ultimately it's all about the prompting when you think about like these AI tools, the smarter the prompt is, the better the results are and the smarter or not smart comes from your brain. yeah, but yeah, it's interesting. There are CRNs.

Paul (02:15.711)
Yeah.

Paul (02:22.462)
Yeah, the prompting is important. Yeah. I think there's some stuff like HubSpot has a use case now where you have all your marketing data inside of HubSpot.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (02:28.742)
Go ahead.

Paul (02:36.296)
and you want to run a report, let's say, you know, what's the ROI on your three different marketing channels and how are they performing? You can do that on your own. It might take a minute to put all that together and generate that report. But now they're doing that with AI where you can just say, hey, what's the ROI of my paid social media channel? And it will just give you the report. It's doing that work for you.

That's the kind of stuff I'm excited about, streamlining the process. We write two or three daily logs every day on every project. And that's great. Then at the end of the project, we write what we call a job audit. It's a summary of the project, what went well, what went didn't, and we review that. If you could use an AI tool.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (03:10.907)
I see.

Paul (03:24.136)
to summarize all of your daily logs and pick out the challenges and write that report for you, that would be very powerful. Stuff like that is what I'm of excited about.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (03:31.324)
Yep. Are you familiar with the tool called High Level? It's a CRM. Yeah. So Go High Level has the capability right now to be integrated with ChatGPT. And you can build out what is called a custom GPT. So I can actually build out a Paul McManus GPT and have the GPT sound like you and respond to every lead that comes in in your language and your voice. So people feel like they're speaking with the owner.

Paul (03:39.156)
Tell him I love you.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:01.348)
of the business. So that's one of the things that we do for my contractor clients where we build out these custom GPTs and help them convert leads into booked appointments. And that tool is just getting better and better with time because of the integrations and the customizations that are possible. with every bot, there's a little bit of hallucination errors that happen, but it's becoming fewer and far between that it's, I'm just excited about the possibility of how that bot can really,

literally leave no lead unconverted, right? That's the possibility of the bot.

Paul (04:36.904)
Yeah, Yeah, that's powerful. If you can get some the automatic responses that sound personal, that sound like you. Yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (04:44.442)
Yeah, so the custom GPTs are working great and it's one of my passions. I do play quite a bit with it. Well, I saved the best for the last. So tell me a little bit about your personal life. What do you do for fun? And then I also read about how many countries you've traveled and you're not just a traveler who hops on a plane and goes and stays in a resort and sightsees. It's incredible what I read. So I'll let you say it in your own

Paul (04:54.996)
Okay.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:11.994)
words about your bicycle expeditions and the continents that you traverse. So I'd love to learn more about you on your personal side.

Paul (05:21.034)
Yeah, but I travel less these days. I'm more focused on the business, but I have been fortunate to, you know, it's a trade -off. In my youth, I spent a lot of time traveling and doing kind of fun things, but I didn't make a lot of money. And then I reached a certain age and I started thinking, okay, I'm gonna need some money someday. And got a little more serious about the business, but you know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:26.169)
I can imagine.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (05:36.754)
It's okay.

Paul (05:50.4)
Travel changes the way I think about everything. I think everyone should spend a lot, as much time as they can traveling, especially to other countries. And especially countries that aren't similar to ours. Like you can go to England, you can go to Germany, and they're gonna be very, very similar to America. But if you start going to, you know.

less well -known places, you're going to have a much, it's much more mind -opening, I think. It's much better experience. So I got very lucky and I was asked to join a bicycle tour company.

based out of Toronto, Canada, that does something very unique. They do cross continental bicycle tours. So there's lots of bicycle tour companies. They do two week, three week, four week tours in different places. These guys do three month, four month long tours and they're always crossing a continent.

So my first tour with them was Cairo to Cape Town, so north to south through Africa. It goes through 10 or 12 different countries in Africa. We did Shanghai to Istanbul with that company, which is across China and then through a bunch of the stands and then through Iran and then eventually winds up in Turkey.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (06:49.906)
Mm

Rathna Ramakrishnan (06:58.172)
Wow.

Paul (07:08.033)
So that's where I got a lot of, like as far as ticking off numbers of countries to see and seeing some pretty unique places, that's where a lot of that came from. And that was, I did that for four, four or five years and that was pretty fantastic.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (07:21.938)
How does it feel though, like waking up and going on a bike ride is one thing, but riding for four months, like does it all kind of just, you so you ride and then you sleep and then you wake up and you ride. And I think riding is kind of fun because you're not walking, so you're not tired. You probably, you know, but you still have the same stimulus and interaction with your surroundings because you're not racing in an automobile or a bus. But does it get old or how does it feel like when you're biking for four months?

Paul (07:31.143)
Yeah, you guys take care.

Paul (07:51.246)
yeah, yeah, yeah, it gets very old. But it's like you said, bicycling is great for travel, I feel like, because you're going fast enough that you see lots of things, but you're going slow enough that you really get to experience those things. And you stop to talk to people when you interact with your environment.

versus being on a plane or a bus or in a car. You're driving by so much stuff and you don't even realize it until you get to the next hotel or the next destination. Cycling through places is very gritty. It's a real adventure, you know what I mean? And the thing about adventure is most adventure...

Rathna Ramakrishnan (08:17.404)
it

Rathna Ramakrishnan (08:28.304)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul (08:35.742)
You know, it sucks. While you're doing it, adventure can be pretty terrible. You know, it can be hard, sweaty, dirty. If you're traveling through Africa, you're definitely getting sick, you know, at least two or three times because there's unsanitary conditions in a lot of countries. You know, in Ethiopia, the kids throw rocks at you because that's what they like to do. So you're hit with rocks all the time.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (08:46.172)
Mm -hmm.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:01.285)
you

Paul (09:01.31)
You know what I mean? You're climbing hills, you're sleeping on rough ground, you know, but at the end of the day, when it's all over, it's there's no better experience. It's pretty fantastic. So I wouldn't I wouldn't give it up for the world. You know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:12.496)
Amazing.

Did you do the same route more than a couple of times or more than one time?

Paul (09:21.63)
Yeah, I did Cairo to Cape Town three times, think. And Istanbul to Shanghai twice. The other side, everything else I did once. There's one that goes through Russia. We did one that goes to the Eastern Bloc countries. We did one across North America, actually. That was still, you know, felt like home, but was still very cool.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:45.318)
Yeah, yeah. And so is there a certain skill level that these bikers need to have to go on this trip or anybody can?

Paul (09:53.74)
mean, you can sit on a bike for six or seven hours a day, you're pretty much, you you have the skill. But the better your fitness level, the more, you know, the better cyclists you are, the better your fitness level, the worse you're have a better time. But you know, the nice thing is it's four months. So even if you're not fit at the start, you're going to be fit by the midway. You know, there's no choice, you know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (09:58.108)
You're welcome.

Amazing.

Yeah, for sure.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:13.522)
Yeah

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:17.616)
You're going to be leaner, leaner, whether you like it or not with all of that biking. Yeah.

Paul (10:21.268)
Yeah, everyone loses weight. Some guys show up and they're already excellent cyclists. A lot of people show up and they're, you know, they're in good shape, but they're not really in the kind of shape they need to be. But in a month, you're, you know, you're naturally going to get there. So.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:26.492)
I'm sure.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:36.507)
So today what do do for fun? come on!

Paul (10:40.928)
Today, I work. That's what I do for fun. I don't do, I really don't. I'm a boring guy. Life is kind of in phases for me. Either I'm doing, I'm kind of on off. I'm either working and I don't do much else. I mean, know, I hang out with friends. I go out to movies. I do normal things, but.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:47.908)
I can't stop!

Rathna Ramakrishnan (10:55.333)
Hmm.

Paul (11:04.776)
Right now, if I have an afternoon on a Saturday where I don't have anything to do, it sounds weird, but I like sitting down and writing a blog post or updating the website or focusing on some other part of the business. That's what I like to do with my free time right now. It's just what I'm focused on. You know, that'll change.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:16.487)
you

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:23.186)
It's completely resonate. Yeah, you can easily become a 24 -7 entrepreneur because you're so passionate about your brand and you just want it to do well and serve your clients. And I know the feeling of how you feel like you're just work, work, work, working. Awesome. Well, it was a...

Paul (11:39.445)
Yeah.

As long as for me as long as it doesn't feel like work, you know? If I'm enjoying it, it's not work. You know what I mean? And when it becomes work, when it becomes... If I have to have discipline and force myself to sit down to do these things, that's when for me it becomes a problem. That's when I know I need to do something else.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:44.999)
Go ahead.

Yeah.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (11:51.45)
Right, right.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:05.638)
Yep.

Paul (12:06.174)
But as long as I'm sitting down and enjoying it, I want to do it. It's just as fun as anything else. And there's seasons to everything. In a couple of years, that will change. And I'll hire someone to run the business while I go maybe on the next adventure.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:11.932)
We will.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:16.71)
Yes.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:22.316)
Absolutely, Adventure is at the core of you. It's in your heart considering you've done these, you bicycle expeditions. So it's going to come back. The spark is in you.

Paul (12:34.494)
Yeah, I think it's almost a little... Like it's difficult for me to go on a two -week vacation because I'm so used to going on multi -month long vacations. You know what I mean? Like it's so different.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:40.636)
Mm -hmm.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (12:45.475)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so cool. I take a four -month break. Half a year. Two weeks, talk to the hand.

Paul (12:53.744)
Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, I go on a vacation and you're like, yeah, I just left and now I'm already back. It doesn't feel as satisfying. So I'm always looking for opportunities to go somewhere and do something for a long period of time, you know.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (13:09.178)
Nice. So I really appreciate your time in chatting with me and dealing with all of these tech issues. If there's a contractor who's trying to make up their mind whether to be on this podcast or not, what would you tell them? What was the conversation style? Did you enjoy hanging out?

Paul (13:26.846)
Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Yeah, you're a great interviewer. And I've loved the experience. been fun. I've been on a few different podcasts. No one's done the research to ask me about my cycling experience before I dive into that stuff. So you obviously put your work in and it's been very enjoyable.

Rathna Ramakrishnan (13:42.418)
I absolutely love spending time on my guests and understanding your background so I can bring value to my listeners. So this was an absolute delight. I really appreciate your time and sharing all of this.